I think the added supply to the roach is good. Although if they do that why not make move while burrowed something you dont need to upgrade. IMO they should make it that way.

if they increase the supply of other units, its gimping the whole "swarm" mechanic of the zerg.

but because roach's have high hp and +1 armor and a decent attack, +1 supply isnt too bad

I understand everything but the Roach nerf. It had already been nerfed several times in succession, it was finally being used appropriately instead of being used all the time. Now it may fall into underuse (although I admit this is unlikely). It is also worthy to note that the only Zerg unit that costs 1 control is now the Drone.

Hopefully this patch will allow Thors to be used a bit more often.
But I'm really looking forward to the "Zerg spell changes" in the next patch.

On another note, I hope Blizzard addresses Reapers sometime in the future. Now they're that much deadlier against Protoss players, and they're too tailored for early rushes to begin with...

i doubt itll go unused in z v p at the very least, cos lings melt to zealots. i dont mind the added supply because tbh i hate going mass roach anyway, i only build lots if i have to and otherwise i just use them to tank in big battles.

it's also worth pointing out that while everything but lings and drones costs more than 1 control now, there's only two units over 2 control - broodlord at 4 and ultra at 6. every unit lower in the tech tree than those two units is 2 control or less.

Good point Copyright... Brood Lords are also the cheapest "capitol ship", and not only Zerglings cost 1/2 control, so do Banelings. So the Zerg is definitely still "swarmy".

the thing is, ive seen games where against thors, zerg goes for roaches because they are incredibly cost effective, and can burrow and regen hp very fast, now that you can fit almost twice as many thors in the same area and increasing supply of roaches, thors are even stronger than they already are vs zerg


only good that came out of this patch is it might make terrans stop just doing MM balls and try mech builds out more

Tay--Tay wrote:I understand everything but the Roach nerf. It had already been nerfed several times in succession, it was finally being used appropriately instead of being used all the time. Now it may fall into underuse (although I admit this is unlikely). It is also worthy to note that the only Zerg unit that costs 1 control is now the Drone.

Man the roach supply cost is logical, the fact is that i tought that roaches always had 2 supply cost (they are powerfull as marauders or stalkers and both cost 2 supply, and more powerfull than zealots that also cost 2 supply, so give me one reason to roaches being 1 supply cost ) and zerg still having zerlings and banelings for 1/2 supply. Roach still same powerfull only cost more supply that isn't a big nerf imo.

BTW this patch is very disappointing to me cause i was hoping the fix of a bug that prevents windows XP users (with spanish version) to watching replays (i think that not only spanish got that problem, but i'm not sure), i couldn't see any of my three matches played. -10 points to blizzard, thousands of people can't get access to a essential feature of the game, and they only fix the exit-crash problem (wich were easily solved loggin out first or killing the process with the Task Manager).

Sorry for the wall of text

EDIT: I have to apologize to blizzard cause i wrote my post based in the patch notes, now i tried to load a replay and worked so apparently blizzard solved the problem, but why they didn't say anything about it? i also cut the quote (showing only the part i was responding) in the edit...

also people bitch about how blizzard isn't listening to them but doesn't it strike anyone like this particular roach nerf is partly designed to discourage mass roach armies? cos that's what people were complaing about - lack of diversity in zerg army compositions because roaches were so hardy. now you literally don't have the space to keep too many around. you can still build a lot but as the game goes on itll become clear that you need other units or you'll lose. seems like a totally positive thing to me. i hate the stupid buggers anyway.

I never thought I'd say this, but I think this particular Roach nerf is overkill (for now). If it had been made to cost 2 control BEFORE the nerfs, it would have been better IMO. A similar thing occurred when Blizzard downgraded it to 1 defense AFTER its fast regen and burrowed move speed were significantly reduced. Now I think that the Roach needs some sort of buff. I liked it when it had many things that made it markedly different from other Zerg units. The super fast regen, the faster burrowed move speed, were all things that made the unit unique and fun to use. Now it's not only lost a bit of what made it special, it's actually been nerfed to make it less useful in combat. TBQH, I'm fine with it costing 2 control, as long as it regains some of the power it had previously.

I'm not angry.

Yeah. It's not like zealots (the units roaches counter) do the same damage as roaches (and definitely not as though they had a HIGHER DPS, no, that's ridiculous), have more health, the same armor, cost no gas, have about the same range, and the only thing that makes (well, made) roaches useful against them is their mass-ability. It's not like increasing their supply is going to have any major ramifications early game, so this nerf makes total sense since it will only ever apply to them late game. And it isn't as though there's anything else that roaches have late game that could potentially have been nerfed instead; I mean, they certainly couldn't reduce the amount an upgrade gives a roach. And roaches have been OP since the beginning; first they nerfed their regen, then their regen, then their armor, and finally a reduction to the speed they move underground, and increasing their supply cost is, after all those really large changes, the logical conclusion. It's only a small thing that will make little impact on the game, and will only slightly affect the roaches balance. It isn't as though it will make them less swarm-like, especially since they fit in so well with the zerg ethos of small, fast and cheap.

/sarcasticrage

Roach nerf is fine and was needed. Have only played Zerg since the patch and they're fine.
(oh, and for all those complaining that Zealots cost 100m and Roaches cost 75m25g: Roaches are a lot more resource optimized than Zealots, thus it's the Roaches advantage)

Thor buff was more than fine, now I'm just waiting for Vikings to get slightly smaller also

Forge nerf; meh, why not? We have seen a lot of (failed) cannon rushes lately, now people maybe try something else

yeah my roaches still rape zealots. actually almost the only context i use roaches in is against zealots.

Undifty wrote:Forge nerf; meh, why not? We have seen a lot of (failed) cannon rushes lately, now people maybe try something else

I only ever use cannons as to stop a 2v2 rush, and making the forge take longer certainly hurts that strategy.

Roach nerf was waaaaay too much. I think they should have found another way to nerf the roach. Increased cost or build time would be far less detrimental to Zerg.

agreed with ipsar, zerg's mechanics is swarmy.

no unit except drone costs 1 supply, technically zerglings/banelings are a half, and roaches/hydras and muta's are 2 lol

Actually I am having second thoughts about my earlier statement. It might not be as bad as it appeared originally. =o

copyrightdna wrote:yeah my roaches still rape zealots. actually almost the only context i use roaches in is against zealots.

So are you saying Roaches are good or bad?

As expressed in my earlier post, I'm not so angry that they now cost 2 control, I'm just upset that they lack the uniqueness and usability they used to have. Plus, this recent nerf assures that I'll never want to build Roaches, and will most likely rely on Hydralisks instead. If they had to increase the control cost for "balance reasons", then so be it, but maybe they can "balance" out that change with a buff to its powers? Please?

Hydras, roaches, mutas, infestors, queens, corruptors; Ultras, Brood Lords, drones, overs and lings are the only units that take anything other than 2 supply. Really? Roaches need to take the same supply as mutas, infestors and queens? Nerf anything but their supply; their health, their attack, their cost even (although that wouldn't really solve the problems they faced). I'd be fine with 14 attack. I'd be fine with 16 attack and upgrades only increase by 1. I'd be fine with 130 health, I might even take 125 without much QQ. But 2 supply? My biggest question is why now? If roaches were really so imbalanced that they needed to take 2 supply, wouldn't you have realized it before now? Wouldn't that have been something they changed in patch 4, not patch 12? IMO, 2 supply is ALMOST as big a change as losing that 1 armor, and they decide to do it NOW, 2 months before release. 2 supply is not a small thing. It isn't +1 supply, it's 2x supply. That's HUGE.

Actually, Mullet_Ben has a good point. Why would they decide to implement such a huge change this far into the beta? I feel that in this case, the situation report really doesn't explain as much as it should. Roaches have plenty of counters, each race has them, not to mention AIR UNITS. You can't really point the finger at 200-supply battles when those counters exist in spades OUTSIDE of those battles, especially in the EARLY GAME. Was there really such a huge problem with Roaches that they had to be nerfed this much, yet again?

Two posters bask of you before me I have two things to ask of you.

1.Get an avatar. Seriously.
2.Write stuff in paragraphs so that it is easier to read.

=p

Guys they are CONSTANTLY nerfing and buffing units and buildings in order to try and achieve the best result. It doesn't matter when they do it! They are experimenting.

It's a beta game Tay-tay, they choose to implement what they feel is necessary when they feel it, that's the beauty of beta, they can do that and they're meant too and noone should get upset because of WHEN they do these things.

In short, why are you arguing about the when when all that is important is the nerf itself. They could of done this when the game goes live if they thought it was a necessary balance issue.

And truthfully I never really noticed that much of a problem with roaches but I never beat a similarly skilled zerg player because I don't know any counters.

I realize that this is a beta (unlike a lot of people), and that the Zerg race and the game as a whole will probably be fine by release. I guess I'm just a bit disappointed, since now we will have to wait until the next patch or so to see how everything will play out for a while. I think it's leaving a lot of players antsy, but I realize that there must be transition periods when things get a little boring or out of whack. Hopefully the next patch will come sooner than later and fix things up.

i imagine some of the changes in patches are overcompensation... like the shrunken thor. i doubt itll stay THAT small, though maybe it wont go back up to its original size. they probably shrunk it down as small as they were willing to go to see what it did to the game.

There is something that makes me feel a little better about this change. Marauders are a hard counter for Roaches; I don't think anyone will disagree. However, 1 Marauder will lose to 2 Roaches. So, in a 200/200 battle of Roaches vs. Marauders, pre-patch, the Roaches would win, in spite of being hard countered by Marauders. As was stated in the situation report, in 200/200 battles, the Roach can be hard to deal with, even with the correct counters in play. (it says by both terran and protoss players, but I'll have none of the toss)

However, this also brings up another issue, which only served to further anger me over this issue. Roaches are a hard counter for Zealots; I don't think anyone will disagree. However, 1 Roach will lose to 1 Zealot. So, in a 200/200 battle of Roaches vs. Zealots, POST-patch, the Zealots would win, in spite of being hard countered by Roaches.The exact same reasoning can be used for this scenario; in 200/200 battles, the Zealot can be hard to deal with, even with the correct counters in play.

Luckily, Roaches are not the only counter for Zealots the zerg has at their disposal. There is another unit which has been very scrutinized recently, that will get some major changes. Blizz, the Ultra better be absolutely AMAZING by patch 13.

Also, to comment about something entirely unrelated to the Roaches (you mean there were some OTHER changes this patch!?), I think the Thor is now a little too small to be called anything but a fat Goliath. I'm also still mad about it's damage change AND the loss of it's cannons; what was once a heavy siege breaker is now a small unit that is either used for light air defense or used in conjunction with a medivac for drops. Really? Wasn't the Thor supposed to Break down walls, not hide behind them or fly around them? I don't play Terran, but here are my suggestions:

1.Reduce rate of fire. Keep the same damage, make it higher, whatever. Just make sure the DPS is lower.

2.Give it more health. Not more armor; it's designed to be countered by light units. But give it health so it can walk up ramps and soak up tank fire.

3. Put it back to its original size. Maybe even larger. Then give it an ability: it can push enemy units back. This would let it wade into battle, breaking up the enemy's defenses, and crashing into their base. Just like any good giant war mech should.

4.Oh, give it back its cannons. I'm sure you'll find some other way to buff the Ultra. Might I suggest Dark Swarm?

Sorry for Wall 'o text. At least it has paragraphs this time XD

Mullet_Ben wrote:However, 1 Roach will lose to 1 Zealot. So, in a 200/200 battle of Roaches vs. Zealots, POST-patch, the Zealots would win, in spite of being hard countered by Roaches.

I play Terran, so I'm not 100% sure, but wouldn't a Roach beat a zealot 1v1 with even mediocre kiting micro?

Also, in a 200 food battle, the ranged units will always win since they are getting way more shots off while the majority of Zealots are being blocked by each other.

I would rather not see all those Thor changes implemented, Mullet_Ben.

1. It's an expensive high-tier unit, so it SHOULD have high DPS.
2. Its model was shrunken for a reason, people were having trouble maneuvering it.
3. It's not as if the Thor lost its 250mm Strike Cannons. I've even seen 'em in play post-patch.
4. Adding another ability to the Thor would kinda dilute things. It's for assault, not spellcasting.

im pretty sure roach doesn't lose to zealot 1 on 1. when i use roaches against zealots the lots get demolished. and that's with stalkers dps-ing. this is probably because roaches are ranged and lots are melee. stuff like that makes a pretty big difference. focus-fire also makes a big difference. so all your roaches can focus fire one zealot, but only the front line of roaches will take any damage from the zealots. sending a small group of lings ahead to pull their gateway army out of position can be useful too, but probably only early on.

and dark swarm is in sc2 - it's called point defense drone now.

copyrightdna wrote:and dark swarm is in sc2 - it's called point defense drone now.

Amen to that.

Actually, I MADE Dark Swarm in my map.

nice one (?)

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